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	<title>Comments on: The Label Maker</title>
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	<link>http://www.mychickencheese.com/2009/06/24/the-label-maker/</link>
	<description>Dishing It Out And Not Taking It</description>
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		<title>By: Stimey</title>
		<link>http://www.mychickencheese.com/2009/06/24/the-label-maker/comment-page-1/#comment-35281</link>
		<dc:creator>Stimey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2009 23:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mychickencheese.com/?p=959#comment-35281</guid>
		<description>This is a wonderful post. I&#039;m glad you wrote it. I am so tired of seeing women tear other women down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a wonderful post. I&#8217;m glad you wrote it. I am so tired of seeing women tear other women down.</p>
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		<title>By: monkey</title>
		<link>http://www.mychickencheese.com/2009/06/24/the-label-maker/comment-page-1/#comment-35204</link>
		<dc:creator>monkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 22:10:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mychickencheese.com/?p=959#comment-35204</guid>
		<description>Hmm, I&#039;m currently &quot;stepping up&quot; in a leadership position (I&#039;m a union steward and chairing a Health Benefits Advocacy Committee), am looking for a long-term career in finance and most likely going to b-school next year. I guess I&#039;m seriously disappointed by the idea that a woman might not want to work for me because of my gender (current marital status, current childlessness etc.). In fact, it&#039;s the poor ethical and demoralising management behaviour I&#039;ve personally witnessed that has prompted my desire for a career change, and it saddens me to hear that women would be unwilling to work with me or tack any criticism up to my gender rather than my very real beliefs about how an organization should be run. 

I don&#039;t feel what your boss said to you is in any way appropriate-but I wonder if you might consider the following read on it:

1) That she felt that women had to look/dress/act a certain way to advance (based on her experiences) and that she was trying to productively mentor you towards advancement in the way she was successful. 

2) That male bosses are less invested in their female employees because they assume they&#039;re only there to collect their paycheck and spend the rest of the time with their families. 

Either way-if you felt you were being discriminated or punished on the basis of your gender, you could have availed yourself of the law regardless of the gender of your harasser. I also believe the power to address and change a manager&#039;s unfair criticism/behaviour does rest somewhat upon the disgruntled employee.   

As far as the other remarks on men not being catty and backstabbing-I&#039;m going to have to respectfully disagree. My ex-boyfriend was a very high ranking executive at a now notorious investment bank (a managing director, actually), one of the youngest on Wall Street. He used to laugh about getting people fired and I witnessed plenty of backstabbing and behind-the-back-trashtalking-conference-calls between him and his rival managing directors. It wasn&#039;t just him-it was all of them. It really blew the lid off the whole &quot;men aren&#039;t like that&quot; meme for me (something I also partially believed at the time). The reason no one talks about it is that a) there usually aren&#039;t very many women at their level because they all drop like flies after a certain point so people really don&#039;t know how these types of megalomanical uber-successful mean really behave and b)that society still categorises male backstabbing as &quot;cutthroat business efficiency&quot; while punishing women who behave in the same way as catty b*tches.  

Highly ambitious people, male or female, mostly tend to be sh*ts. I agree that men and women communicate very differently, but I disagree that women are instrincally bad managers eager to rip apart their female employees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, I&#8217;m currently &#8220;stepping up&#8221; in a leadership position (I&#8217;m a union steward and chairing a Health Benefits Advocacy Committee), am looking for a long-term career in finance and most likely going to b-school next year. I guess I&#8217;m seriously disappointed by the idea that a woman might not want to work for me because of my gender (current marital status, current childlessness etc.). In fact, it&#8217;s the poor ethical and demoralising management behaviour I&#8217;ve personally witnessed that has prompted my desire for a career change, and it saddens me to hear that women would be unwilling to work with me or tack any criticism up to my gender rather than my very real beliefs about how an organization should be run. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t feel what your boss said to you is in any way appropriate-but I wonder if you might consider the following read on it:</p>
<p>1) That she felt that women had to look/dress/act a certain way to advance (based on her experiences) and that she was trying to productively mentor you towards advancement in the way she was successful. </p>
<p>2) That male bosses are less invested in their female employees because they assume they&#8217;re only there to collect their paycheck and spend the rest of the time with their families. </p>
<p>Either way-if you felt you were being discriminated or punished on the basis of your gender, you could have availed yourself of the law regardless of the gender of your harasser. I also believe the power to address and change a manager&#8217;s unfair criticism/behaviour does rest somewhat upon the disgruntled employee.   </p>
<p>As far as the other remarks on men not being catty and backstabbing-I&#8217;m going to have to respectfully disagree. My ex-boyfriend was a very high ranking executive at a now notorious investment bank (a managing director, actually), one of the youngest on Wall Street. He used to laugh about getting people fired and I witnessed plenty of backstabbing and behind-the-back-trashtalking-conference-calls between him and his rival managing directors. It wasn&#8217;t just him-it was all of them. It really blew the lid off the whole &#8220;men aren&#8217;t like that&#8221; meme for me (something I also partially believed at the time). The reason no one talks about it is that a) there usually aren&#8217;t very many women at their level because they all drop like flies after a certain point so people really don&#8217;t know how these types of megalomanical uber-successful mean really behave and b)that society still categorises male backstabbing as &#8220;cutthroat business efficiency&#8221; while punishing women who behave in the same way as catty b*tches.  </p>
<p>Highly ambitious people, male or female, mostly tend to be sh*ts. I agree that men and women communicate very differently, but I disagree that women are instrincally bad managers eager to rip apart their female employees.</p>
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		<title>By: schmutzie</title>
		<link>http://www.mychickencheese.com/2009/06/24/the-label-maker/comment-page-1/#comment-35192</link>
		<dc:creator>schmutzie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 18:51:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mychickencheese.com/?p=959#comment-35192</guid>
		<description>You are being featured on Five Star Friday!
http://www.fivestarfriday.com/2009/06/five-star-fridays-edition-60.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are being featured on Five Star Friday!<br />
<a href="http://www.fivestarfriday.com/2009/06/five-star-fridays-edition-60.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.fivestarfriday.com/2009/06/five-star-fridays-edition-60.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Hip Mom's Guide</title>
		<link>http://www.mychickencheese.com/2009/06/24/the-label-maker/comment-page-1/#comment-35149</link>
		<dc:creator>Hip Mom's Guide</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:05:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mychickencheese.com/?p=959#comment-35149</guid>
		<description>You don&#039;t hide from the controversial out there in the far midwest, do you?  Wow!  You must be from the East Coast, or something. :)

I think this strikes a chord with so many of us because you&#039;re describing something we all understand--regardless of what our &quot;labels&quot; are and how we feel about them.  This is exactly the kind of post I like to read, though, because it&#039;s moving the conversation along, asking the questions, making us stop and think about how our choices affect us and others.

And she&#039;s the Bestest Girl, too, isn&#039;t she?  You&#039;re lucky to be there with her.  Hope she&#039;s feeling all better!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You don&#8217;t hide from the controversial out there in the far midwest, do you?  Wow!  You must be from the East Coast, or something. <img src='http://www.mychickencheese.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I think this strikes a chord with so many of us because you&#8217;re describing something we all understand&#8211;regardless of what our &#8220;labels&#8221; are and how we feel about them.  This is exactly the kind of post I like to read, though, because it&#8217;s moving the conversation along, asking the questions, making us stop and think about how our choices affect us and others.</p>
<p>And she&#8217;s the Bestest Girl, too, isn&#8217;t she?  You&#8217;re lucky to be there with her.  Hope she&#8217;s feeling all better!</p>
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		<title>By: Grey</title>
		<link>http://www.mychickencheese.com/2009/06/24/the-label-maker/comment-page-1/#comment-35140</link>
		<dc:creator>Grey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mychickencheese.com/?p=959#comment-35140</guid>
		<description>I agree that women can be hard on one another - particularly when it comes to labeling - breast vs. bottlefeeders, working mothers vs. SAHMs, etc.  I agree that we should work to deconstruct the stereotypes and labels and celebrate our unity, while also celebrating our diversity. Labels, such as &quot;feminist&quot;, or &quot;genderqueer&quot;, or &quot;homeschooling mom&quot; are also used for self-identification and as a way for like-minded people to connect.  Words can be used for good and bad - they do hold power, all the same.

I tend to agree with Sandra that your description of the working woman (and your dismissal of her) is just as hurtful as the very words and labels you threw out in the paragraph above.  I&#039;ve worked for several female bosses.  They&#039;ve all been fabulous and fair.  They&#039;ve never once commented on my need to wear more make-up or a skirt.  (That was a move I decided on myself, and not to &quot;walk up the ladder&quot;, but to boost my own self-image a bit.)  I currently work with a strong team of female engineers and scientists - we all work well together.  I&#039;ve been amazed and impressed by the comraderie among female leads.  That is MY experience.  I think your view is based on your experience, which is fine...but it&#039;s a stereotype you&#039;ve developed nonetheless. 

I don&#039;t wish to be rude and I&#039;m not attempting to be snarky - I love your blog and your writing.  I love the image of your daughter and you snuggled together. But I do think you&#039;ve just given a prime example of the very issue you&#039;ve identified as problematic, by putting the negative image of the corporate female boss in direct juxtaposition to the comments from your daughter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that women can be hard on one another &#8211; particularly when it comes to labeling &#8211; breast vs. bottlefeeders, working mothers vs. SAHMs, etc.  I agree that we should work to deconstruct the stereotypes and labels and celebrate our unity, while also celebrating our diversity. Labels, such as &#8220;feminist&#8221;, or &#8220;genderqueer&#8221;, or &#8220;homeschooling mom&#8221; are also used for self-identification and as a way for like-minded people to connect.  Words can be used for good and bad &#8211; they do hold power, all the same.</p>
<p>I tend to agree with Sandra that your description of the working woman (and your dismissal of her) is just as hurtful as the very words and labels you threw out in the paragraph above.  I&#8217;ve worked for several female bosses.  They&#8217;ve all been fabulous and fair.  They&#8217;ve never once commented on my need to wear more make-up or a skirt.  (That was a move I decided on myself, and not to &#8220;walk up the ladder&#8221;, but to boost my own self-image a bit.)  I currently work with a strong team of female engineers and scientists &#8211; we all work well together.  I&#8217;ve been amazed and impressed by the comraderie among female leads.  That is MY experience.  I think your view is based on your experience, which is fine&#8230;but it&#8217;s a stereotype you&#8217;ve developed nonetheless. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t wish to be rude and I&#8217;m not attempting to be snarky &#8211; I love your blog and your writing.  I love the image of your daughter and you snuggled together. But I do think you&#8217;ve just given a prime example of the very issue you&#8217;ve identified as problematic, by putting the negative image of the corporate female boss in direct juxtaposition to the comments from your daughter.</p>
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		<title>By: Omaha Mama</title>
		<link>http://www.mychickencheese.com/2009/06/24/the-label-maker/comment-page-1/#comment-35136</link>
		<dc:creator>Omaha Mama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:12:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mychickencheese.com/?p=959#comment-35136</guid>
		<description>I just popped over from One Plus Two and had to tell you how much I enjoyed this smart, smart post. The way women are with each other fascinates me too and I really like what you have to say about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just popped over from One Plus Two and had to tell you how much I enjoyed this smart, smart post. The way women are with each other fascinates me too and I really like what you have to say about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Sandra Sorren</title>
		<link>http://www.mychickencheese.com/2009/06/24/the-label-maker/comment-page-1/#comment-35135</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandra Sorren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:07:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mychickencheese.com/?p=959#comment-35135</guid>
		<description>Okay, apologies for the worldview comment. That was unnecessarily snarky. 

I don&#039;t know how old you are, how long you worked, where, for whom, etc., but your post saddened me (not the mommy part, that was all sugar). Your old boss was trying to help you, in an awkward way. You voted with your feet. The end. If nothing else, you learned what you don&#039;t like, which is worth something.  

Prejudices help people feel more secure, particularly when deep down they know they can&#039;t control much in life. It&#039;s very natural to label people and shun &quot;types.&quot; It feels much safer to remain unchallenged professionally. So: you stay away from those mean female bosses! They might say something about yoru lipstick!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, apologies for the worldview comment. That was unnecessarily snarky. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know how old you are, how long you worked, where, for whom, etc., but your post saddened me (not the mommy part, that was all sugar). Your old boss was trying to help you, in an awkward way. You voted with your feet. The end. If nothing else, you learned what you don&#8217;t like, which is worth something.  </p>
<p>Prejudices help people feel more secure, particularly when deep down they know they can&#8217;t control much in life. It&#8217;s very natural to label people and shun &#8220;types.&#8221; It feels much safer to remain unchallenged professionally. So: you stay away from those mean female bosses! They might say something about yoru lipstick!!</p>
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		<title>By: Irene</title>
		<link>http://www.mychickencheese.com/2009/06/24/the-label-maker/comment-page-1/#comment-35133</link>
		<dc:creator>Irene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:13:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mychickencheese.com/?p=959#comment-35133</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a chronic, without a job, in therapy constantly 4 days a week, psychiatric patient. What label do I give myself? Am I a housewife? I&#039;m not married. My child&#039;s a grown up. I&#039;m not a leper, but a survivor. There is no handy acronym for me. We don&#039;t all fit in labels and isms. Some of us are indescribable. Yet we participate in life too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a chronic, without a job, in therapy constantly 4 days a week, psychiatric patient. What label do I give myself? Am I a housewife? I&#8217;m not married. My child&#8217;s a grown up. I&#8217;m not a leper, but a survivor. There is no handy acronym for me. We don&#8217;t all fit in labels and isms. Some of us are indescribable. Yet we participate in life too.</p>
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		<title>By: pgoodness</title>
		<link>http://www.mychickencheese.com/2009/06/24/the-label-maker/comment-page-1/#comment-35128</link>
		<dc:creator>pgoodness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mychickencheese.com/?p=959#comment-35128</guid>
		<description>bestest mama = the best label ever!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bestest mama = the best label ever!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Kris</title>
		<link>http://www.mychickencheese.com/2009/06/24/the-label-maker/comment-page-1/#comment-35127</link>
		<dc:creator>Kris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 10:43:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mychickencheese.com/?p=959#comment-35127</guid>
		<description>IMO, mainstream American culture in general (which includes female employees as well as female bosses) tends to have different - and not necessarily realistic or appropriate expectations - of male and female bosses.  It&#039;s not unlike how there are different expactations of men and women when it comes to housework, childcare, and other professional and domestic roles that continue to have strong, if evolving, gendered expectations. A dad who takes three weeks of parental leave following the birth of a child, does occasional grocery shopping, and washes the cloth diapers typically gets feted as a pro-feminist hero.  Mom who does the same would probably be considered selfish for going back to work so soon and being uninvolved with her baby.  Likewise, if the baseline for a good male boss is merely that he doesn&#039;t actually sexually assault his employees when he decides to act like a dick, he&#039;s going to look great compared to the female boss who is expected to be competent, fair, understanding of our personal as well as professional needs, nurturing, tough-but-not-brittle, capable of giving feedback without hurting feelings...I could go on, but you get the point.  Of course there are workplaces where women bosses treat women employees badly; remember, however, that nasty things like sexism are often deeply internalized.  Even those of us who consider ourselves progressive and feminist can unwittingly fall prey to our &quot;isms&quot; and judge each other unfairly, regardless of position in the professional heirarchy.

And the various mommy acronyms/labels?  Don&#039;t fit me either.  I agree that they are at best tiresome and often divisive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMO, mainstream American culture in general (which includes female employees as well as female bosses) tends to have different &#8211; and not necessarily realistic or appropriate expectations &#8211; of male and female bosses.  It&#8217;s not unlike how there are different expactations of men and women when it comes to housework, childcare, and other professional and domestic roles that continue to have strong, if evolving, gendered expectations. A dad who takes three weeks of parental leave following the birth of a child, does occasional grocery shopping, and washes the cloth diapers typically gets feted as a pro-feminist hero.  Mom who does the same would probably be considered selfish for going back to work so soon and being uninvolved with her baby.  Likewise, if the baseline for a good male boss is merely that he doesn&#8217;t actually sexually assault his employees when he decides to act like a dick, he&#8217;s going to look great compared to the female boss who is expected to be competent, fair, understanding of our personal as well as professional needs, nurturing, tough-but-not-brittle, capable of giving feedback without hurting feelings&#8230;I could go on, but you get the point.  Of course there are workplaces where women bosses treat women employees badly; remember, however, that nasty things like sexism are often deeply internalized.  Even those of us who consider ourselves progressive and feminist can unwittingly fall prey to our &#8220;isms&#8221; and judge each other unfairly, regardless of position in the professional heirarchy.</p>
<p>And the various mommy acronyms/labels?  Don&#8217;t fit me either.  I agree that they are at best tiresome and often divisive.</p>
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